Please note, this transcript has been copy-pasted without the lovely touch of a human editor. Please expect some typos!

Today, we're digging into the Coco & Eve playbook specifically to understand what made this brand a 47,000-person waitlist and tens of millions of reach before launch. We're also going over what a proof of concept actually means. And Emily's thoughts on capital as a totally bootstrapped founder that still owns 100% of her company.

And if you haven't downloaded our grants document yet, there are so many good ones ready to be applied to this month. Like the carer women's Initiative where you can access up to $100,000 in funding and the Fearless Fund in partnership with Tory Birch Grant where you can now access up to $20,000 to download the list of every current grant you can apply to around the world right now. Go to Female Startup Clubs grants list. Alrighty, let's jump into this episode. This is Emily from Female Startup Club. Emily. Hello, welcome to the female startup club podcast. Hi, nice to be in touch. Great to chat with you today. I'm so excited. You're in Singapore. How's Singapore today? Do you have any winds or Oh shit moments you can do for today. Um, We're doing well, actually, it's been a great year for us after the roller coaster of COVID. So we just did a launch into ALTA and it's going well. So we're really happy.

Yeah, we're really happy. Oh, wow. Congratulations. That's huge. So exciting. So exciting. I know that your story starts way, way back pre San and Guy pre Coco and Eve. And I wanna go back to Bella Boxx because I'd like to understand what ultimately happened with that business that led you to where you are today and the kind of learnings you took away from that business. Wow. So Bella has started in 2011 and uh I really started running my own business. Uh, 2009. So the entrepreneurial journey has been long before that I had been in startup. So and really the love of beauty, the, the vibe, the creativity, the energy, um it's really grown since then. And when you sort of go into an industry for the first time, you feel the, the future and you feel the possibilities and um that was really the start with, with, I love marketing and I loved e-commerce and, and decided then that I would start my career, really build my career in, in that.

So I think the biggest lessons were really, it was before D to C, right? So it's really connecting with the, with the consumer um as you know, all the way to the brand and that's where I saw the opportunity in that business. And um yeah, I think that's the biggest learning also. We bought a database of 40,000 subscribers. So, you know, people wanna try beauty products and they want to share them and they want to always discover new things. And that was really the start of it for me. And I feel like around that time, you know, 2011-2012, the iconic was launching in Australia. The market was getting educated on shopping online, things were really starting to shift from a consumer behavior perspective. Um As well as social media, Instagram was kind of just becoming a thing. Advertising on Facebook was extremely lucrative. It was an interesting kind of inflection point for all these things to be happening at once.

What kind of took you away from Bella Boxx and into Coco and Eve and Sand and Sky. We were really inspired by working with all of these brands. What makes a beauty brand successful? And we saw that as well that consumers would really respond if a particular brand or product was, was in the box and that they could really try it. So beauty was really this, this connector. Um but building brands on social media was just a really big possibility and we saw that um connecting with consumers listening to them, what do they want? What do they love? And so we set about building um a few brands which we did over the years. And so it was definitely an exciting time and um you know, space uh to be something that I noticed both with Send and Sky and Coco and Eve is that you kind of bent the rules a little bit or ditched the playbook rather and launched with just a single skew a single product.

Why was that? And is that something that you would advise founders to do today when building new Ecom D to C brands? Great question. I think what we set out to do was really create something unique. Um And so if we looked at the market, what was missing and what were consumers really looking for and built those, those brands and that product. And I think that the main reason or one of the reasons was we were just so focused on building that and capturing market share, that the, the sort of portfolio of the products that N P D product development, you know, sort of came after. And would I recommend that? I think, you know, there's probably a perfect playbook but, you know, a lot of times when you're building a brand, you might have the perfect team and, and, you know, think that's a perfect concept but it doesn't always work and the beauty with, you know, beauty is you can really gain traction with a little bit of money with a great idea.

You can see, oh, that's the consumer really loving that and build that up. So I'd probably come to market with, with a few more products uh to really give depth to the brand. And you really, you know, thinking about where the brand is going to go. But for us at the time, we were just really focused on gaining that traction and, and really capturing that, that consumer and making the products and brands exciting. Today, I really want to focus on that playbook specifically around Cocoa and Eve, especially digging into the early days of what kind of started to get you the traction and how you kind of, you know, put this brand together. I know you were leveraging the data that you already had from Bella Box, you knew kind of the gaps in the market and what customers would respond to. But what led you to this brand that is very inspired by Balinese ingredients and Australia. And kind of just how did this brand actually come to light?

What was your light bulb moment for this? So, the brand was created in 2015, we launched it in 2018 once we had enough money to launch it. And really the opportunity was hair care and you had two segments of the market, right? You have supermarket brands, you know, it's very cheap ingredients. You've got lots of 10% sulfates, you've got lots of fillers that it cleans your hair and that's it. And then you have the salon brands and where are the brands that consumers really could connect to and really understand and we love cruelty free. We really see the the value of a vegan brand not using animal based ingredients in your products. And so there was a really huge opportunity in the market and that's where really Coco and Eve was born. But I think that really using ingredients and this efficacy message, we wanted people to try the product and like, oh my God, it's amazing.

Um So that moment and we also built like how we're going to make this brand look on social media because if you're in the salon, then the hairdresser can recommend um in the in the supermarket. You you just see, you know, the the product. But what about showing it on social media, how people use the product, what's their experience with the product? And so we used all these strategies to do that. So we were really the first to create these accessories and these bundles. So the accessories, because it's hard to show a shampoo. Here's my shampoo on social media, but you could show wearing your hair wrap and you show um you know, the before you use the shampoo and after and the whole kind of journey. So it's really storytelling, using social media was really the key strategy to sort of really get the, you know, people interested in the brand and get that traction. Yeah, I love that. And I think it's still so highly critical to do today, design your brand to live on social media and stand out on social media.

But also obviously design a brand that people want to recommend to a friend that people are going to come away and be like, oh, I love that. I would use that again. I would buy that again and I would tell my friends about it on whatsapp. Touch my hair, look at it. Yeah, exactly. Smell my hair. Yeah, exactly. And I think sometimes even though they're both so obvious to dos, they can be overlooked, sometimes you can try a product and you're like, oh, that was odd. That was an odd experience or I, I don't, it didn't hit for me. And so I, yeah, I love both of those um points that you make for you. Something that we love to talk about on the show is the money piece. I know that you are 100% owned business and you haven't taken on fundraising. How much kind of capital did you need to get started and launch the brand? So we had a house of uh we had, you know, we've built four brands under supernova and with the money that we, that we generate. So I think first of all, we uh it sort of goes back to the very start.

Why couldn't we here, why we built the business and we wanted a profitable business and now it's cool to have a profitable business. So, you know, it's glad that we're, that we're here. So if you have from day one, we need a profitable business or you build the business pace to be that way and you make sure um it's really building the whole culture and, you know, throughout we will be profitable, we invest our profits um back in and um as we built the whole brand and have extended our business, we added on more countries and we added on more warehouses. And we sort of just, I think the key thing when you're building any brand or any business is just constant improvement, constantly reinvesting and, and building that up. So that's what we've, we've always done and we need it. Look, we did have money to put in when I was, you know, I was in my kind of mid thirties when I started uh Supernova and um you know, we had saved up $300,000 and said, ok, this, you know, when you, when you start a business, it's good to have a good base.

This is, this is it. So, and that's what we've, we've built the business on um from the beginning on eve did have investments from the other brands. So probably about $2 million are invested in the brand. The investment took over two years. And then since the year three, we've been profitable and, and that back, you know, more times of as we've been able to scale and grow the business. So, but it was done within, within the group um investing in, in, you know, in growth now that you've kind of built, you know, four different brands. You've really done a rinse and repeat on playbook, playbooks that, you know, things that work and things that don't work for someone launching a new brand. Now, where would you allocate money, time resources? Great question. And then, you know, the the market has evolved so much, you know, during COVID and that was a good two years, right? E-commerce is where it was happening. So, you know, I just say e-commerce do e-commerce and figure that out and I think that it's still there.

It's come back this year. It was definitely last year it was a move back into, to retail. But where would, what's the playbook, where would brand start? Um You know, it's definitely what I've seen over the years. You know, there's a lot of funding going into beauty so your competitors have funding. So that's, that's where, where the market is. But I think you need to have proof of concept. I think you need to before taking your money, it's not just free money, they want to see their return. So and you want to see the return on your own, you know, own investment is get proof of concept. Do people love the product? Do they get the brand? And there's enough people out there that want to experience new things. So I would focus on a market, you know, Australia is such a great market, um especially hair, hair care is booming. So different markets doing different things. But you know, Australia is such a good market. If you're in Australia, UK start locally, like make sure you've got that reach and because once you start adding on, you know, this international expansion, the complexity of the business goes up.

And I think these days which is different to two or three years ago, operational costs are extremely high. The cost of, you know, packaging and products and operational costs, warehousing last mile. They, they've gone up so much and we feel it um as a business. So that's a new challenge these days that brands need to be conscious of. And yes, so I'd say that focus on a market, get traction, people love your product and if they, if you don't get traction just iterate and improve until you do. Um because, you know, sometimes it doesn't always just take off. It's sometimes not that easy. But um yeah, when you say proof of concept, you know, for you, would that be like hitting a certain amount of revenue? Would that be just anecdotally seeing the vibe on social media and online or would that be something like how would you quantify that as?

Oh yeah, we've got it, let's go or is it like, oh, it's just really obvious if you've got it or not? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's definitely not an easy question. And I don't think, sorry, I'm putting you on the spot here. Yeah, I think there is like a one shot with that, but I think that what we have the chance to do in the beauty industry is really this breakthrough innovation. And the best example is flex because they just came up with a product which was so new and innovative and you can do that in a small scale. So I think when consumers, I think that's it for me, if you're coming out with sort of a regular shampoo conditioner and a, you know, it does well or a tanner, what is it about it that you can really make special and, and for the tanner really self tan as well. It was really kind of solving a problem with which is this, you know, sort of bad DH a smells like ingredient that, you know, you get this kind of like what we call the biscuit smell.

So like how do we get rid of that smell and like, you know, so that was like about it like and so when we, you know, the first to talk about it, people are like, oh my God, I get that, I hate that smell like this. So there's so many ways to do it. Um But I think it's really this, you know, the differentiation coming out with something different and new and different and new way that people get it. Um So of course they buy it and you launch and, and they um your revenue is increasing um every month it's, it's, it's increasing and, and why is it increasing? And um you see that engagement on social media as well? Got it. I want to talk specifically about the go to market strategy for Cocoa and Eve and how you kind of started to ramp that up because I read some crazy stats like you guys got millions, tens of millions of reach in the first month. You had some crazy 50,000 person waitlist like everything was all happening. So what were you doing to drive that interest um in the very beginning circa 2018 2019.

Um So we're really one of the first to really have this messaging about cruelty free vegans. So it was coming out with something different that really connected and it was this fun engaging aspect. So we really use social media. So we always do like April fools joke. So we always did that like from the beginning and we worked with like influencers in really creative ways. So we worked with this UK influencer and I was recreating the Kim Kardashian break the internet. Probably don't remember that. But like she, you know, she threw like champagne and on the glass on the bottom and re recreated it with coconut. I forgot that. Yeah. Oh my God. So it's just kind of like a picture on social where you create some hype but like obviously a video video or a video. Oh my God. I love that. That's so much fun. Oh I love that. I feel like all of those things like fun marketing initiatives as well.

Really keep the journey enjoyable because it's sparking joy within yourself, within the team, within your customers and that lifts the lifts the vibe. Yeah, we did for our birthday as well. We just did a, a Balinese pool, you know how they did the flowers in the pool. And so we got that done and um and we do Yeah, lots of fun on social media. So we got the um there was a trend where is it real or is it cake so we got the tan as a cake and then they cut it. So it looks like a real tan and they cut it and it's cake and oh my gosh, sort of things just to get the views, man. Like just is like every day a topic. And uh yeah, I mean you're about to hit a million followers on Instagram. You're pretty close. Are you gonna do something to celebrate? Yeah, we should. Yeah. No, definitely. That's a good idea yet. So if you have any other ideas, you can do, let us know what's shifting the needle for you now, in terms of revenue drivers, like, is that something that for you?

It's still the the same kind of playbook like influences and, and social first approach or is there other things I E the retail playbook, new product expansion into different categories, things like that. Um So it's an interesting space we're in now because you have Europe and UK which is going through this, you know, really strong inflation, erosion of living cost, like erosion of like um the cost of living increase and so erosion of sort of, you know, lifestyle and, and so you have these challenges in that, in that market, whereas us is, is growing really strongly Australia and Canada. So you have sort of different things going on in, in different markets. I think what is sort of being the journey for us and it was probably a little bit too long where we were definitely an e-commerce brand.


Our retailers were online, which served us well during COVID because, you know, this everybody was buying online and, um, that's where the consumer was. So, um, what we did in 2022 was really focus on, um, getting in store. And so that work we did last year is really paying off this year where we have launched into boots and into altar. Um, The launch into altar has been amazing and it's just had this halo effect. So, you know, beauty, what's really sort of come out of the end of COVID is this omni channel strategy. And for us, it's, it's your direct channel. It's marketplaces like Amazon which don't, you know, largely don't have that market share like in Australia, but they do in, in certainly, um you know, Europe UK and, and the US um and the retailer and the retail is predominantly um you know, for us, physical retail and having all of those channels working well set up is, is really the key that's, you know, driving our growth uh this year, what's the goal for you as someone that's bootstrapped?

Do you see the vision of exiting these businesses that are doing so well at some point or do you see the vision of creating more brands and adding to the portfolio for a future exit of the entire portfolio company? It's definitely evolved over the years. Um as funding is poured into beauty, it's become so competitive and, you know, your competitor has $10 million in the bank and mentors and, and so that's the reality. So we've had to adjust our strategy to um that reflects that. And uh Coco and Eve has just been far and away the biggest success story. Um for us, it's growing um you know, so much this year, we're at 30 35% growth. So the focus is on that. But yeah, we definitely, I think the next step is to get um you know, investors on board to really help uh with that growth.

So it's definitely on our radar and something we're looking out for. Um I think that most of the, you know, media talk is how, you know, founders make all this money in two years. And I, I just think that's the, you know, that's the exception rather than the norm. And if you want to really start a start up and, and see that through, I think you got to commit 10 years. I think it's like I'm in it don't be afraid if it's taking longer than you think, you know, just focus on the big vision and keep improving, just focus on every day what you can approve and it really changes things when you do that and, and so then the right partner will come along and um so yeah, that's where we're at. So that's so exciting. What's that saying? Um It takes 10 years to reach overnight success. We're all out here thinking people just pop on tiktok overnight and everything's just rosy.

But in actual fact, it's taken 10 years of hard work to get there and to get to that point. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it feels like that. But um, yeah, you gotta, you just gotta commit for the long haul and it'll come, I actually just wanted to circle back to this point that you made around launching into companies like, and you know, you're having this big success in retail has that shifted your marketing playbook? Like, what are you doing differently now to make sure that those partnerships and at, at such a huge scale are a success. I don't like, I, I think, you know, we do invest quite heavily into, into marketing. I think there's a lot we we can do for sure. But one campaign we did to launch into was um we worked with influencers, basically their story of going in into altar and we had a Tik Tok go viral like it went viral and completely, we just sold out and, and so it's, it's, it's a video where she goes in to alter and we'd lost it there and we, we did sell quite well.

So there was a little stock left and then she finally managed to get the stock and she showed how to that she used the product and it just went viral. It's got 10 million views on, on tiktok. So and it's benefited all channels. Um not just, it's been on Amazon and our direct we feel feel that so we, we feel that you have to have this mix between kind of above the line just getting that reach with the right people and, and being there and sort of, you know, driving to purchase and we just see the consumer, I mean, maybe they'll purchase on site first, but then they go into altar or they, they've seen it online and they like, oh, I like that brand, but I wanna see it in real life. So then they will go into altar. So this is just, I think that that commitment to creating, you know, interesting sort of uh engaging content above the line and, and trying to get the reach for that and also you have your e-commerce strategies to, you know, continue driving the sort of direct channel as well.

So with this 10 million views video, it was on her channel that it went viral and was she like a an influencer you partnered with kind of being, you know, a micro influencer where you're like, you know, it's just content, it's going to be great. Like we're not hoping for a viral video. Of course, we're always hoping for a viral video, but you know what I mean? Or were you like, hey, strategically we've chosen this person who has a very big reach most videos get a lot of views and we think that it has the potential or the kind of recipe to be able to go viral as in, was it planned or was it unplanned? So tiktok is such a great channel, it's extremely difficult. So for us, um we typically don't pay huge fees for, for influencers and it's really about that long term relationship. So if it goes well, they do oppose a paid organic, paid organic. So it's, it's not just a one off, here's $10,000 like this is the view.

So it was really a campaign to create awareness that we had launched into altar. So it wasn't a huge budget. It was, you know, it cost less than $2000 for that video. And it was uh working with those influencers who have that affinity with altar that people there to follow us. And I'm not sure if you, you saw all the content about drunk elephant where the De Bronzy has just gone completely viral. So we looked at the videos that were doing well for popular products like De Bronzy. And we said, OK, we like this concept when they go into store and, and so we give them concept and give them free um rain basically to create under that theme and that typically works for us. So, yeah, we give sort of basic brief and um you know, try to find the right people and, and you know, don't, we don't you know, pay those huge fees. So, you know, tiktok, it's just one of those things you can't guarantee when it goes viral.

But definitely, that's amazing. Wow, amazing what it does. So amazing. And off the back of that, have you established a longer term partnership with that creator now? Or how do you leverage what's happened? Not for sure. Yes, we love her. So, yeah, we keep working with her and um yeah. no, it's our goal for all partnerships that we can, you know, build that relationship um with them. Amazing. Gosh, what is your advice for small business owners and founders who are in the early stages of building their business in 2023? Um I think that consumers love creativity, they love trying new products that are different and interesting to them. So it's all in the product and how you position it. I think there's certain retailers too that are great to connect with.

You know, I think that Priceline is an interesting one. So we sell the, with them. I know they're taking on some, some brands if you're in that price point. So it's good to connect with the retailer and, and you know, have that, that strategy. But um well, now I'd be like, just be all over tiktok, just figure out how you can um get that traction on tiktok if you want those, you know, to get that reach, find those viral videos, figure out the formula and recreate.


So question number one is, what's your, why? Why are you waking up every single day and building the brands under supernova, breakthrough innovation and coming from e-commerce, you know, most of my career where you get instant feedback when you work on a product for years and an idea for years, it's so amazing when you bring it to market and people love it. It's devastating when they don't. So um but that's my, that's my why I love that and just doing something different and really challenging myself and the team. Have you ever launched something that wasn't a hit that you had to backtrack on? Yep. Do you want to talk about it? So I think that um one of the, I mean, it's not a flop, it's been quite successful actually, but one of our, so our shampoo so that um like a virgin super hydrating shampoo is definitely one we worked on for so long and we were really pushing the envelope.

It had to be sulfate free. You had to have this really high naturality and, and hair care is really difficult to find that balance no silicon. So um you know, really clean formula and the hair care is just, it's, it's so difficult to really find that balance because at the end of the day, people prioritize efficacy over naturality or clean um ingredients. So we definitely push, push the boundary there. And I think that we've got lots of shampoo conditional launches coming up. I want a product that everybody loves and um this product has definitely been loved by people with more dry hair, um curly hair, but those with more and more fine hair, it's just definitely been mixed feedback. So it sells really well. So I definitely get good feedback, but I want everybody to love it. And, and so that's probably one of the biggest learnings and hair care is so difficult to make a shampoo and conditioner uh like a shampoo.

It's taken us many years and I'm working with the right manufacturer. But um I think we've cracked the code now, so June, we've got some launches coming up. It's gonna be better. But you know, like that feedback is sometimes the feedback can be. Um so we launched a body sunscreen and it was literally like a week ago in America. People want to know is that Hawaii Reef Safe compliant? Is it have this ingredient and that ingredient? And so we had to pivot a little bit in our, in our communication. So those things you can, you can fix. So, you know, feedback can be various things. Yes, feedback pushes you forward even though sometimes it hurts. Question number two is what's been your favorite marketing moment so far? I think when we launched the town, it was an instant hit and really focusing on, I think we believed why the sort of the formula and the magic that we put onto hair care can work across all categories.

And um we just wanted to be a really different and integrated beauty brand. So I think that was the biggest achievement. We got lots of pr and we did a campaign where it was really about a strategy of latter. So you look at, OK, you know, focusing on a negative, no bad tan smells, which is really the key for that and sort of really embracing body imperfections and um were really the first to show your stretch marks and um you know, celebrate you. So that campaign was, it just took off immediately. So that was definitely the, you know, amazing moment. Love that I read you sell something crazy like a bottle every 20 seconds. We sell 1000 a day. Yeah. Jesus. Wow, that's amazing. Gosh, goodness. Question number three is what's your go to business resource when you have to think about a book or a podcast or a newsletter that you consume?

Oh, there's so many, I, I, you know what I'm loving now and I have to say there's so many um branding experts on tiktok and Um So those ones are, are really consult, so seek them out. There's, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot on there. So really, really thinking about your brand and your positioning. I'd say that first of all, but sort of business of fashion and um global cosmetics um newsletters, they're definitely things I love to read and, you know, giving a perspective on the, on the industry. But I also go, I see manufacturers. Uh I go to all the events so it's on the ground talking to people as well. So these events are open to everybody. So um get talking to people and see what they're seeing on the ground. Keep up to date with what's happening in technology and innovation in the beauty space for sure. Yeah. Question number four is how do you win the day?

What are your AM or PM? Rituals and habits that keep you feeling happy and successful and motivated for me? There's, yeah, I wish I had a recipe. I have, I have two young kids. I have a husband. I have a very busy job and I, what used to get me down is just, you know, the overwhelming of it every day and, and really switching a mindset. This is awesome. I have so many opportunities I got over the impostor syndrome. Like, oh what if this is not gonna work and the doubts and just having a great team and something to look forward to and you know, great husband and kids. So that's how I just go through the day. It sometimes takes me, I wish I, uh, I wish I had that formula to win the day. But, um, you know, just working hard and, and being grateful and thankful that we, we, we can be so busy and have lots to do.

How did you shift your mindset? I feel like it's a hard thing to do sometimes. Oh, you know, I think that everybody had those moments out of COVID. Right. So COVID just made all of our lives traumatic and it just wasn't feasible to go on. So, um, you had to make changes and a lot of people changed. I feel I'm not alone with that. I, I think a lot of people change their mindset and, um, you know, just said, well, this is busy. This is tough. Um, you know what we live through COVID, you know, even a business you have demand here, it shifts to here. It just every day. We, we, the warehouse is closed for a week. Oh, now they're open again. You know, this, um, it was just problems every day and I think, you know, when you talk about, you know, just solve the problems, get to the bottom of them, solve the problems. You just see the progress much quicker than like, oh my God, I've got all these problems.

It's just overwhelming me. So, um, I think that was, that was a bit of it, a bit of the moment of dealing with everything. Yes. No other choice. No other choice. Yeah. Question number five is, what is your worst money mistake? And how much did it cost you? I think that, um, we're doing pretty good. I mean, it's, we, we are self funded business and, you know, we do, we learn from these little mistakes over the years. I think that what has been the most challenging and the most confronting that was kind of out of our control or something you didn't see has definitely been a change in consumer demand. Um That's, that's shifted um over the years and where they're buying and what they're buying. And I think that's been the most challenging. So really to figure out, ok, how do we make the right decisions but still stay flexible and build that into all of our systems?

So making wrong stock purchases, I think uh has been the most painful because um uh you want all your money and your investments to go to use. Hm Absolutely. Question number six. Last question. What is just a crazy story? You can share good or bad from your journey in building Cocoa and Eve sand and sky and anything under the supernova brand at the start of COVID in 2020. Sorry, I kept to talk about COVID but it was, it's a big part of our lives still fresh. This is a good story. So Donald Trump, when he was president, he gave out like the Trump check and it's $1000 to every American citizen. And um, he did this at the end of uh April and it was our biggest sales month. We completely sold out. We sold 2500 sales that day like units. It was just an amazing boost to e-commerce and completely surprising and uh overwhelmingly good.

Wow. Um, the Trump check. Yeah, we will never forget. It was all of a sudden we're making all these sales. So consumers just took the money and they bought Coco and Eve. Oh my gosh. That's so bizarre. The Trump check it so bizarre. Yeah. It's a real story. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Emily, thank you so much for taking the time to come on female startup club today and share your journey in building these businesses and the playbook that's been working for you. I'm so grateful to have you on the show.